Round 2 (Job 15-21)
This month we are covering the Book of Job. (Here is the link to the First Job Post.) This week we have been covering Job's discussion with the three comforters. We have already covered Round 1 in the previous three posts.
We are going to cover all of Round 2 in this post because the arguments are getting superficial. In fact, there isn't much thinking going on. The discussion has deteriorated into personal attacks! If you want to get the full flavor of what each person says, read these chapters for yourself.
ELIPHAZ
Eliphaz begins Round 2 (Job 15) by justifying himself and attacking Job. Remember, Job ends Round 1 by accusing the three "comforters" of being false teachers who will be judged. Apparently Eliphaz took this hard because he begins Round 2 saying that Job is the false teacher. Here are some highlights:
"2 Should a wise man make answer with vain knowledge, And fill himself with the east wind?
3 Should he reason with unprofitable talk, Or with speeches wherewith he can do no good?
4 Yea, thou doest away with fear, And hinderest devotion before God.
5 For thine iniquity teacheth thy mouth, And thou choosest the tongue of the crafty.
6 Thine own mouth condemneth thee, and not I; Yea, thine own lips testify against thee." (ASV)
Eliphaz is saying that he doesn't have to reason with Job because of Job's attitude. Job is to be blamed, not Eliphaz. Then, Eliphaz accuses Job of being prideful:
"7 Art thou the first man that was born? Or wast thou brought forth before the hills?
8 Hast thou heard the secret counsel of God? And dost thou limit wisdom to thyself?
9 What knowest thou, that we know not? What understandest thou, which is not in us?
10 With us are both the gray-headed and the very aged men, Much elder than thy father." (ASV)
In fact, Eliphaz is saying that he must be right because he has more people on his side than Job does. These people are assumed to be smart because they are either "gray-headed" or "very aged". Notice, Eliphaz's people aren't able to be questioned because they aren't present. Eliphaz accuses Job throughout the rest of his speech:
"13 That against God thou turnest thy spirit, And lettest words go out of thy mouth?" (ASV)
"25 Because he hath stretched out his hand against God, And behaveth himself proudly against the Almighty;" (ASV)
"31 Let him not trust in vanity, deceiving himself; For vanity shall be his recompense." (ASV)
Eliphaz's response could be summed up in the following way: "I am right because I have more people ("experts"?) that agree with me than you have AND I don't have to give you an answer because of your attitude." Eliphaz is avoiding giving an answer because he is offended by Job's pride and rudeness.
Are there people like Eliphaz today? Are there people who think that right is proven by numbers? Are there people who think that "experts" are always right? (We saw in an earlier post that the last person you can expect to get revelation from, of something completely new, is an "expert".) Are there people who won't answer questions and instead attack the questioner by stating he is in pride or rude? Are any of these people teachers or preachers?
Job responds by attacking back (Job 16):
"2 I have heard many such things: Miserable comforters are ye all.
3 Shall vain words have an end? Or what provoketh thee that thou answerest?
4 I also could speak as ye do; If your soul were in my soul's stead, I could join words together against you, And shake my head at you.
5 But I would strengthen you with my mouth, And the solace of my lips would assuage your grief." (ASV)
Job blatantly states that these three men are "miserable comforters"! He states that anyone could do what they are doing. Job goes so far as to state how he would have dealt with them if they had gone through this. Job is proving they are hypocrites.
In the next chapter (Job 17), Job has reached the final stage of grief: acceptance. Job realizes he is ready to die. First he realizes he has no help:
"1 My spirit is consumed, my days are extinct, The grave is ready for me.
2 Surely there are mockers with me, And mine eye dwelleth upon their provocation.
3 Give now a pledge, be surety for me with thyself; Who is there that will strike hands with me?
4 For thou hast hid their heart from understanding: Therefore shalt thou not exalt them.
5 He that denounceth his friends for a prey, Even the eyes of his children shall fail.
6 But he hath made me a byword of the people; And they spit in my face." (ASV)
Then Job realizes he has no hope:
"13 If I look for Sheol as my house; If I have spread my couch in the darkness;
14 If I have said to corruption, Thou art my father; To the worm, Thou art my mother, and my sister;
15 Where then is my hope? And as for my hope, who shall see it?
16 It shall go down to the bars of Sheol, When once there is rest in the dust." (ASV)
BILDAD
It's Bildad's turn (Job 18). His response is even more superficial. He begins by defending himself:
"2 How long will ye hunt for words? Consider, and afterwards we will speak.
3 Wherefore are we counted as beasts, And are become unclean in your sight?" (ASV)
Bildad is now blaming Job for the inability of the three friends to give Job an answer: Job needs to come up with the right words and see the three of them as right. Bildad finishes by stating that Job is unrighteous and doesn't know God:
"21 Surely such are the dwellings of the unrighteous, And this is the place of him that knoweth not God."
Bildad's response can be summarized as follows: "You don't know what you are talking about because you aren't as smart as me. When you get smarter, let me know and then I'll answer your questions." Remember, Bildad appealed to tradition and history. He also has the "experts" on his side. These "experts" can't respond because they are dead...even older than Eliphaz's experts. When Bildad can't explain what those people knew, he blatantly blames Job for his own (Bildad's) ineffectiveness.
Are there people like Bildad today? Are there people who pretend to have the answers and blame you for their inability to explain it to you? Are there people who claim to be right because of who they know? Are there people who won't answer questions and instead attack the questioner by stating they are too naive or stupid to understand? Are any of these people teachers or preachers?
Job seems to ignore Bildad (Job 19), and continue with the "acceptance" stage of grief:
"4 And be it indeed that I have erred, Mine error remaineth with myself.
5 If indeed ye will magnify yourselves against me, And plead against me my reproach;
6 Know now that God hath subverted me in my cause, And hath compassed me with his net." (ASV)
Job has accepted that this could be his fault...and his alone. In fact, Job accepts that he is now alone in the world:
"19 All my familiar friends abhor me, And they whom I loved are turned against me." (ASV)
Job admits God has done this and states the very least these three friends could do is have pity:
"21 Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends; For the hand of God hath touched me.
22 Why do ye persecute me as God, And are not satisfied with my flesh?
23 Oh that my words were now written! Oh that they were inscribed in a book!" (ASV)
Job asks for a book to be written with these words in it! Job proves he isn't a hypocrite: even though he is in pain, he is still thinking about helping others. In fact, Job tries to help his friends with a summary:
"25 But as for me I know that my Redeemer liveth, And at last he will stand up upon the earth:
26 And after my skin, even this body, is destroyed, Then without my flesh shall I see God;
27 Whom I, even I, shall see, on my side, And mine eyes shall behold, and not as a stranger. My heart is consumed within me.
28 If ye say, How we will persecute him! And that the root of the matter is found in me;
29 Be ye afraid of the sword: For wrath bringeth the punishments of the sword, That ye may know there is a judgment." (ASV)
Job states that eventually he will meet God. Job believes God will justify him and punish his friends. Job is giving his friends a warning.
ZOPHAR
Zophar responds (Job 20) to Job's belief that the friends will get punishment:
"2 Therefore do my thoughts give answer to me, Even by reason of my haste that is in me.
3 I have heard the reproof which putteth me to shame; And the spirit of my understanding answereth me.
4 Knowest thou not this of old time, Since man was placed upon earth,
5 That the triumphing of the wicked is short, And the joy of the godless but for a moment?" (ASV)
Zophar wants to ignore everything by saying everything they've been discussing doesn't matter in the overall picture.
"27 The heavens shall reveal his iniquity, And the earth shall rise up against him.
28 The increase of his house shall depart; His goods shall flow away in the day of his wrath.
29 This is the portion of a wicked man from God, And the heritage appointed unto him by God." (ASV)
Then Zophar finishes by saying that Job must be wrong and wicked because Job lost his goods.
Zophar's response can be summarized as follows: "Nothing we've discussed matters...however, you are still wrong." Remember, Zophar said we couldn't understand the WHY. In fact, Zophar says no one can, but it doesn't matter. When Zophar can't explain the WHY, he responds by attacking everyone's ability to understand.
Are there people like Zophar today? Are there people who want you to listen to them, only so they can state that we are all beyond understanding anything? Are there people who won't answer questions and instead try to appear to be intelligent by saying no one has intelligence? Are any of these people teachers or preachers?
Again, it appears that Eliphaz was the most excellent of the three friends and Zophar was the least excellent. This second round could be summarized:
Job: "You deserve punishment."
Friends: "You deserve punishment."
Job decides to end Round 2 (Job 21) with conclusions. He's not interested in attacking. Now that he has reached "acceptance", he's going to summarize his position and let the friends do whatever they want:
"2 Hear diligently my speech; And let this be your consolations.
3 Suffer me, and I also will speak; And after that I have spoken, mock on.
4 As for me, is my complaint to man? And why should I not be impatient?
5 Mark me, and be astonished, And lay your hand upon your mouth.
6 Even when I remember I am troubled, And horror taketh hold on my flesh.
7 Wherefore do the wicked live, Become old, yea, wax mighty in power?
8 Their seed is established with them in their sight, And their offspring before their eyes.
9 Their houses are safe from fear, Neither is the rod of God upon them.
10 Their bull gendereth, and faileth not; Their cow calveth, and casteth not her calf.
11 They send forth their little ones like a flock, And their children dance.
12 They sing to the timbrel and harp, And rejoice at the sound of the pipe.
13 They spend their days in prosperity, And in a moment they go down to Sheol.
14 And they say unto God, Depart from us; For we desire not the knowledge of thy ways.
15 What is the Almighty, that we should serve him? And what profit should we have, if we pray unto him?" (ASV)
Job has taken up the contrastive argument to what he is experiencing! (By the way, Job is saying wicked people don't want knowledge of God's ways, don't want to serve God, and don't want to pray to God.)
Job is righteous AND he has experienced loss. The three friends want to say that the ONLY reason a person experiences loss (hindered progress) is because they are wicked (unprofitable/immoral)..."this effect (suffering) can ONLY come from one cause (immorality)".
Job is asking how would you explain the wicked getting blessed? How would you explain the wicked avoiding judgment? Apparently there is more than one effect (punishment and blessing) that results from one cause (immorality):
"23 One dieth in his full strength, Being wholly at ease and quiet:
24 His pails are full of milk, And the marrow of his bones is moistened.
25 And another dieth in bitterness of soul, And never tasteth of good.
26 They lie down alike in the dust, And the worm covereth them." (ASV)
Job has shown that the friends are contradictory. He then summarizes this:
"34 How then comfort ye me in vain, Seeing in your answers there remaineth only falsehood?" (ASV)
Job is stating that contradiction proves you are wrong...that you are false.
SUMMARY
Round 2 of this discussion was mostly made up of people attacking each other. Job points out that the friends are useless because they can't help him understand. Each of his friends replies with an attack and a rationalization why they can't help Job understand.
Eliphaz - because of Job's attitude (prideful and rude)
Bildad - because Job lacks ability to understand Bildad
Zophar - because all of us lack the ability to understand everything
Job concludes Round 2 by proving his friends are false through use of the contrastive process. Job has reached "acceptance" and is done with the discussion.
However, his friends want to go another round...
Next Post
We are going to cover all of Round 2 in this post because the arguments are getting superficial. In fact, there isn't much thinking going on. The discussion has deteriorated into personal attacks! If you want to get the full flavor of what each person says, read these chapters for yourself.
ELIPHAZ
Eliphaz begins Round 2 (Job 15) by justifying himself and attacking Job. Remember, Job ends Round 1 by accusing the three "comforters" of being false teachers who will be judged. Apparently Eliphaz took this hard because he begins Round 2 saying that Job is the false teacher. Here are some highlights:
"2 Should a wise man make answer with vain knowledge, And fill himself with the east wind?
3 Should he reason with unprofitable talk, Or with speeches wherewith he can do no good?
4 Yea, thou doest away with fear, And hinderest devotion before God.
5 For thine iniquity teacheth thy mouth, And thou choosest the tongue of the crafty.
6 Thine own mouth condemneth thee, and not I; Yea, thine own lips testify against thee." (ASV)
Eliphaz is saying that he doesn't have to reason with Job because of Job's attitude. Job is to be blamed, not Eliphaz. Then, Eliphaz accuses Job of being prideful:
"7 Art thou the first man that was born? Or wast thou brought forth before the hills?
8 Hast thou heard the secret counsel of God? And dost thou limit wisdom to thyself?
9 What knowest thou, that we know not? What understandest thou, which is not in us?
10 With us are both the gray-headed and the very aged men, Much elder than thy father." (ASV)
In fact, Eliphaz is saying that he must be right because he has more people on his side than Job does. These people are assumed to be smart because they are either "gray-headed" or "very aged". Notice, Eliphaz's people aren't able to be questioned because they aren't present. Eliphaz accuses Job throughout the rest of his speech:
"13 That against God thou turnest thy spirit, And lettest words go out of thy mouth?" (ASV)
"25 Because he hath stretched out his hand against God, And behaveth himself proudly against the Almighty;" (ASV)
"31 Let him not trust in vanity, deceiving himself; For vanity shall be his recompense." (ASV)
Eliphaz's response could be summed up in the following way: "I am right because I have more people ("experts"?) that agree with me than you have AND I don't have to give you an answer because of your attitude." Eliphaz is avoiding giving an answer because he is offended by Job's pride and rudeness.
Are there people like Eliphaz today? Are there people who think that right is proven by numbers? Are there people who think that "experts" are always right? (We saw in an earlier post that the last person you can expect to get revelation from, of something completely new, is an "expert".) Are there people who won't answer questions and instead attack the questioner by stating he is in pride or rude? Are any of these people teachers or preachers?
Job responds by attacking back (Job 16):
"2 I have heard many such things: Miserable comforters are ye all.
3 Shall vain words have an end? Or what provoketh thee that thou answerest?
4 I also could speak as ye do; If your soul were in my soul's stead, I could join words together against you, And shake my head at you.
5 But I would strengthen you with my mouth, And the solace of my lips would assuage your grief." (ASV)
Job blatantly states that these three men are "miserable comforters"! He states that anyone could do what they are doing. Job goes so far as to state how he would have dealt with them if they had gone through this. Job is proving they are hypocrites.
In the next chapter (Job 17), Job has reached the final stage of grief: acceptance. Job realizes he is ready to die. First he realizes he has no help:
"1 My spirit is consumed, my days are extinct, The grave is ready for me.
2 Surely there are mockers with me, And mine eye dwelleth upon their provocation.
3 Give now a pledge, be surety for me with thyself; Who is there that will strike hands with me?
4 For thou hast hid their heart from understanding: Therefore shalt thou not exalt them.
5 He that denounceth his friends for a prey, Even the eyes of his children shall fail.
6 But he hath made me a byword of the people; And they spit in my face." (ASV)
Then Job realizes he has no hope:
"13 If I look for Sheol as my house; If I have spread my couch in the darkness;
14 If I have said to corruption, Thou art my father; To the worm, Thou art my mother, and my sister;
15 Where then is my hope? And as for my hope, who shall see it?
16 It shall go down to the bars of Sheol, When once there is rest in the dust." (ASV)
BILDAD
It's Bildad's turn (Job 18). His response is even more superficial. He begins by defending himself:
"2 How long will ye hunt for words? Consider, and afterwards we will speak.
3 Wherefore are we counted as beasts, And are become unclean in your sight?" (ASV)
Bildad is now blaming Job for the inability of the three friends to give Job an answer: Job needs to come up with the right words and see the three of them as right. Bildad finishes by stating that Job is unrighteous and doesn't know God:
"21 Surely such are the dwellings of the unrighteous, And this is the place of him that knoweth not God."
Bildad's response can be summarized as follows: "You don't know what you are talking about because you aren't as smart as me. When you get smarter, let me know and then I'll answer your questions." Remember, Bildad appealed to tradition and history. He also has the "experts" on his side. These "experts" can't respond because they are dead...even older than Eliphaz's experts. When Bildad can't explain what those people knew, he blatantly blames Job for his own (Bildad's) ineffectiveness.
Are there people like Bildad today? Are there people who pretend to have the answers and blame you for their inability to explain it to you? Are there people who claim to be right because of who they know? Are there people who won't answer questions and instead attack the questioner by stating they are too naive or stupid to understand? Are any of these people teachers or preachers?
Job seems to ignore Bildad (Job 19), and continue with the "acceptance" stage of grief:
"4 And be it indeed that I have erred, Mine error remaineth with myself.
5 If indeed ye will magnify yourselves against me, And plead against me my reproach;
6 Know now that God hath subverted me in my cause, And hath compassed me with his net." (ASV)
Job has accepted that this could be his fault...and his alone. In fact, Job accepts that he is now alone in the world:
"19 All my familiar friends abhor me, And they whom I loved are turned against me." (ASV)
Job admits God has done this and states the very least these three friends could do is have pity:
"21 Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends; For the hand of God hath touched me.
22 Why do ye persecute me as God, And are not satisfied with my flesh?
23 Oh that my words were now written! Oh that they were inscribed in a book!" (ASV)
Job asks for a book to be written with these words in it! Job proves he isn't a hypocrite: even though he is in pain, he is still thinking about helping others. In fact, Job tries to help his friends with a summary:
"25 But as for me I know that my Redeemer liveth, And at last he will stand up upon the earth:
26 And after my skin, even this body, is destroyed, Then without my flesh shall I see God;
27 Whom I, even I, shall see, on my side, And mine eyes shall behold, and not as a stranger. My heart is consumed within me.
28 If ye say, How we will persecute him! And that the root of the matter is found in me;
29 Be ye afraid of the sword: For wrath bringeth the punishments of the sword, That ye may know there is a judgment." (ASV)
Job states that eventually he will meet God. Job believes God will justify him and punish his friends. Job is giving his friends a warning.
ZOPHAR
Zophar responds (Job 20) to Job's belief that the friends will get punishment:
"2 Therefore do my thoughts give answer to me, Even by reason of my haste that is in me.
3 I have heard the reproof which putteth me to shame; And the spirit of my understanding answereth me.
4 Knowest thou not this of old time, Since man was placed upon earth,
5 That the triumphing of the wicked is short, And the joy of the godless but for a moment?" (ASV)
Zophar wants to ignore everything by saying everything they've been discussing doesn't matter in the overall picture.
"27 The heavens shall reveal his iniquity, And the earth shall rise up against him.
28 The increase of his house shall depart; His goods shall flow away in the day of his wrath.
29 This is the portion of a wicked man from God, And the heritage appointed unto him by God." (ASV)
Then Zophar finishes by saying that Job must be wrong and wicked because Job lost his goods.
Zophar's response can be summarized as follows: "Nothing we've discussed matters...however, you are still wrong." Remember, Zophar said we couldn't understand the WHY. In fact, Zophar says no one can, but it doesn't matter. When Zophar can't explain the WHY, he responds by attacking everyone's ability to understand.
Are there people like Zophar today? Are there people who want you to listen to them, only so they can state that we are all beyond understanding anything? Are there people who won't answer questions and instead try to appear to be intelligent by saying no one has intelligence? Are any of these people teachers or preachers?
Again, it appears that Eliphaz was the most excellent of the three friends and Zophar was the least excellent. This second round could be summarized:
Job: "You deserve punishment."
Friends: "You deserve punishment."
Job decides to end Round 2 (Job 21) with conclusions. He's not interested in attacking. Now that he has reached "acceptance", he's going to summarize his position and let the friends do whatever they want:
"2 Hear diligently my speech; And let this be your consolations.
3 Suffer me, and I also will speak; And after that I have spoken, mock on.
4 As for me, is my complaint to man? And why should I not be impatient?
5 Mark me, and be astonished, And lay your hand upon your mouth.
6 Even when I remember I am troubled, And horror taketh hold on my flesh.
7 Wherefore do the wicked live, Become old, yea, wax mighty in power?
8 Their seed is established with them in their sight, And their offspring before their eyes.
9 Their houses are safe from fear, Neither is the rod of God upon them.
10 Their bull gendereth, and faileth not; Their cow calveth, and casteth not her calf.
11 They send forth their little ones like a flock, And their children dance.
12 They sing to the timbrel and harp, And rejoice at the sound of the pipe.
13 They spend their days in prosperity, And in a moment they go down to Sheol.
14 And they say unto God, Depart from us; For we desire not the knowledge of thy ways.
15 What is the Almighty, that we should serve him? And what profit should we have, if we pray unto him?" (ASV)
Job has taken up the contrastive argument to what he is experiencing! (By the way, Job is saying wicked people don't want knowledge of God's ways, don't want to serve God, and don't want to pray to God.)
Job is righteous AND he has experienced loss. The three friends want to say that the ONLY reason a person experiences loss (hindered progress) is because they are wicked (unprofitable/immoral)..."this effect (suffering) can ONLY come from one cause (immorality)".
Job is asking how would you explain the wicked getting blessed? How would you explain the wicked avoiding judgment? Apparently there is more than one effect (punishment and blessing) that results from one cause (immorality):
"23 One dieth in his full strength, Being wholly at ease and quiet:
24 His pails are full of milk, And the marrow of his bones is moistened.
25 And another dieth in bitterness of soul, And never tasteth of good.
26 They lie down alike in the dust, And the worm covereth them." (ASV)
Job has shown that the friends are contradictory. He then summarizes this:
"34 How then comfort ye me in vain, Seeing in your answers there remaineth only falsehood?" (ASV)
Job is stating that contradiction proves you are wrong...that you are false.
SUMMARY
Round 2 of this discussion was mostly made up of people attacking each other. Job points out that the friends are useless because they can't help him understand. Each of his friends replies with an attack and a rationalization why they can't help Job understand.
Eliphaz - because of Job's attitude (prideful and rude)
Bildad - because Job lacks ability to understand Bildad
Zophar - because all of us lack the ability to understand everything
Job concludes Round 2 by proving his friends are false through use of the contrastive process. Job has reached "acceptance" and is done with the discussion.
However, his friends want to go another round...
Next Post
posted by jg lenhart at 12:03 AM
2 Comments:
Has Job's ARE been revealed yet or is that still to come?
Ed
Hi Ed,
It has not been revealed yet. Tomorrow's post is the most important post I've ever written...
Post a Comment
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